Building Work Cultures We Don’t Need to Heal From with Lindsey Fuller
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In This Episode
What does it really mean to create a work culture we don’t need to heal from? In this episode of When Bearing Witness, I’m joined by Lindsey Fuller, an educator, coach, and Executive Director of The Teaching Well, for a deep and necessary conversation on trauma-informed storytelling, nonprofit communication ethics, and collective care.
We talk about how nonprofit storytelling impacts our nervous systems, why self-care alone isn’t enough, and what it looks like to build human-centered organizations rooted in ethical storytelling practices.
About Lindsey Fuller
Lindsey Fuller is an educator, coach, and changemaker with over 20 years of experience in education, facilitation, and leadership development. As Executive Director of The Teaching Well, she works to stabilize schools and redignify the teaching profession by supporting educators and nonprofit professionals with the tools they need to build resilience, communicate with care, and thrive in their work. Her approach centers trauma-informed practices, collective well-being, and sustainable organizational culture.
Connect with Lindsey Fuller
Gather at the Well Podcast | The Teaching Well | Linkedin
Transcripts
Maria Bryan:
Welcome to the When Bearing Witness podcast. This podcast is an invitation to explore trauma-informed storytelling—a safe and healthy process of gathering and telling painful stories. It's hosted by me, Maria Bryan, a career storyteller. I have long believed that storytellers play a crucial role in making the world a better place.
For a brief moment, I was introduced to the concept of trauma-informed storytelling—and it changed my life. Join my conversations with trauma-informed experts and social good storytellers as we help shape the intersection of trauma-informed care and the storytelling process. Stories are sacred, and we can create safe spaces to tell and share them.
Today, I am so honored to welcome Lindsey Fuller, an educator, coach, and changemaker on a mission to stabilize schools and redignify the teaching profession. As the Executive Director of The Teaching Well, Lindsey brings over two decades of experience in education, facilitation, and coaching—helping educators and education-adjacent nonprofit staff develop the resilience and communication tools they need not just to survive, but to thrive.
If you've ever worked in nonprofits, especially in the storytelling space, you know the emotional toll it can take. The same can be said of our teachers and school leaders. We are living through a burnout epidemic in both fields. And today, I'm so thrilled to have Lindsey on, because we're going to dig deep into not only how we can sustain ourselves during this season—but how to build cultures we don't need to heal from.
Lindsey, welcome to the show. I'm so, so excited that you're here.
Lindsey Fuller:
Thank you so much for having me.
Maria Bryan:
Set the foundation here—what brought you to The Teaching Well? Tell us a little bit about your story and why stabilizing schools has become such a personal mission of yours.
Lindsey Fuller:
Yeah, I mean, a little bit of the universe, a little bit of fate, and a long time trying to really wrap around the highest-needs students. I have a fascination—and it's not a pleasant one. It’s kind of like a fire in my belly. A never-ending reserve of warrior energy focused on who gets cast away, who gets elevated, who’s quietly terminated or discarded—both adults and students in schools.
There’s a lot of shadow work, and I was fighting for a long time to try and wrap around the most marginalized community members across stakeholder groups. I slowly began to carve out some expertise around turnaround schoolwork. The issue is: we can't stabilize schools with a revolving door of educators, and we can't accomplish the most pressing societal missions without stabilizing the nonprofit workforce.
And so I kind of accidentally stumbled into The Teaching Well—burnt out in education—thinking, how do I solve this issue of chronic turnover in schools? The retention-focused work that The Teaching Well was doing drew me in. I found the happy space in the Venn diagram of social impact—being able to serve both nonprofits and schools. That's what really drew me here.
Maria Bryan:
You know, I am planning a talk for the Ethical Nonprofit Summit that’s coming up, and it’s going to be specifically on navigating resistance to change. Part of that is having long-term plans within your role so you can celebrate the little wins.
I was talking to Diana Farias Heinrich, who is the founder of the summit, and I said, “In this talk, I’m going to talk about the five-year plan.” She’s like, “No. No one stays in their role for five years in the nonprofit space.” So I said, “Okay, three years?” She said, “Eh, shorter. Make it like a year and a half, two years.” It just reminds me of the reality in these roles, where burnout is an epidemic—in teaching, in the nonprofit space. It’s almost expected that you’ll be there for two years, maybe.
I don’t know what the stats are for teachers right now—do you?
Lindsey Fuller:
I mean, it does change. And in urban schools and communities, the attrition rates are much higher. About 75% of educators in Oakland, for example, are pretty green. They’re very green. We’ve lost a lot of veteran educators—there's been a lot of turnover. They may be new to teaching or second-career educators, but still within their first three years.
I think it’s preventable. I think the myth of work-life balance that many of us have been striving toward—this hamster wheel, this unrealistic goal of a 50/50 equal split between your professional and personal life—I don’t ascribe to that myth. But I do think folks would get closer to balance if they stayed in roles longer.
Because the perpetual cycle of onboarding, job searching, building relational trust, honing your skillset, applying feedback, piloting work—if we’re resetting every few years, how do we ever drop into our family goals or our personal wellbeing goals?
That’s not my MO. I’m wrapping my fourth year here, and I’ll be here for a long time. I spent 10 years in the last district I was in. My co-leader Marisol was in her school charter network for 14 years. I think we also need to expand our concept of retention to focus on holding people inside the organization—not necessarily inside the same role. That’s important to me.
You might shift title, you might shift duties—but can you make a professional home? Can you find a beloved community and choose to stay and weather the storm, and be unapologetic about forging the culture that will keep you? It’s a reciprocal choosing—between staff, leaders, and the organization’s mission. These are living ecosystems.
So I don’t know. I spar with the concept that we should prepare for everyone to leave. I think we need to invest in the systems that would enable them to stay.
Maria Bryan:
You have this tagline—it was in your intro and will probably be the title of this episode: creating work cultures we don’t need to heal from. This is exactly what you're talking about—being proactive instead of reactive.
And I really have to name that this is not a normal, typical year for anyone. Especially in the nonprofit space. It feels just as chaotic, in different ways, as when we entered the pandemic not too long ago. It’s compounding.
So what does creating a work culture we don’t need to heal from look like in action? While you work with educators, I know you also work with nonprofits, and I think we have a lot of notes to take from the work you’re doing with The Teaching Well.
Lindsey Fuller:
Yeah, I appreciate that. That’s why I keep using the term “social sector” and really asking people to stretch what we envision—because we’re stronger together. Collective liberation means we’re linking up in solidarity.
So when I use the phrase “social sector,” I mean nonprofits, and I mean education, and I mean social impact work. We need to form more bridges and break down all the walls, because walls are being put up every single day. And the symptoms are very similar across these industries—they just show up under slightly different conditions.
Before we can build adult work cultures we don’t need to heal from, we need to be able to see the challenges our staff are facing.
At The Teaching Well, we talk about this in our curriculum—the first step to stress management is simply noticing. One of the things that chronic stress, fatigue, and burnout do is disassociate you—from your body, your emotions, your mental health, your relationships. It’s a wholly isolating experience.
You can be surrounded by people every day, all day, and still feel completely alone. And the wild thing is—the person next to you is very likely experiencing those same symptoms.
So how do we bust stigma?
Burnout often manifests as illness, injuries, and being ruthless toward yourself and others. Some of the most harmful things educators hear are the things they say to themselves when no one is around.
I also see extremes in behavior—some folks oversleep, others have insomnia. Some isolate; others overexert. People-pleasing, saying yes to every social engagement. Binge eating or skipping meals. It’s all there.
We can’t break out of this spiral until we name it.
Maria Bryan:
I think it’s really important that you’re bringing up both ends of the spectrum. We think burnout looks like anxiety and overworking—but I have a hypo response. When I’m most stressed, I’ll sleep 12 to 15 hours. I shut down.
And even though it might look like I’m lazy, or not stressed—it’s actually how my body copes. And I think that’s what’s so important. It won’t look the same for everyone. Everyone's body, DNA, and lived experience shape that.
Sometimes it shows up as a total lack of creativity. Sometimes it’s grandiosity—thinking your organization will fall apart if you’re not working seven days a week.
In my program When Bearing Witness, I share a list of possible signs of burnout, compassion fatigue, and vicarious trauma. I’m curious how that vicarious trauma shows up for educators.
But again—it’s not a choice. This is what our bodies do.
The last two weeks, I was getting ready for the spring program and working 12-hour days. And my therapist said, “What are you doing teaching trauma-informed storytelling when you're working 12-hour days?” So I say this to give grace to ourselves—that sometimes, even when we're aware, our bodies kick into patterns that might surprise us.
You know you're not your best self—and that might look like getting three hours of sleep, or it might look like sleeping 15 hours. I’ve had long seasons where I wasn’t awake for more than four hours at a time. My body just couldn’t stay awake. It was my trauma response. So I see it.
Lindsey Fuller:
It's so real. And I think what you're layering here is important—because many educators do have vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue. And some are experiencing actual burnout.
Our board member, Julia Ez, reminded us recently that we’ve overused certain terms. Everyone’s using the word “burnout” to describe symptoms of stress and fatigue. I’m wary of that, because it can create a numbing effect—like, “Well, everyone’s burnt out.”
But actually, maybe you’re just tired. It’s normal to be tired after you work hard. It’s normal to feel fatigue after high output.
What I think is so important is the concept of self-study—really getting to know yourself. And as a leader, beginning to understand each of your staff’s manifestations of stress, their capacity, their threshold, and tolerance.
When I think of a thriving organization we don’t need to heal from, I think of inclusion. One of my goals in leadership is not just general workplace wellbeing—but creating space where those furthest on the margins, including folks who are neurodivergent and who are trauma survivors, can also rest, receive care, decelerate their nervous systems, and show up as their favorite self.
I’m both neurodivergent and a trauma survivor. I haven’t had many employers who could meet my magic, I suppose.
So when I hear you say you shut down because of freeze—I get it. I fight and I fawn, which means I overexert. And no one explained that to me. I learned that like three years ago. That was a chronic fatigue and burnout behavior of mine—being tanked and still saying yes.
I’d be like, “Sure, I can come to the event. And I’ll table. And I’ll open it. And maybe I’ll do an interpretive dance?” I’d get home and finally reconnect with my own body and think, “What are you doing?” I’d driven myself into the ground.
I think we were exposed to each other through the We Are For Good community and the keynote I gave—but people’s feathers got ruffled when I said I was the protagonist in my own burnout journey.
Maria Bryan:
Hmm.
Lindsey Fuller:
People do not want to hear that. When I share it, I experience so much resistance. But it’s my truth. I’ve had a significant amount of agency—especially being in leadership roles for the last decade. And I consistently extended past my own boundaries and capacity.
No one talks about the discipline self-care requires. It's not sexy. It’s not bath bombs. It’s not massages. It’s consistency. It’s boundaries—with yourself, not just others. It’s communication and deep trauma healing work. Oof—it’s nasty. But I love it. I feel fulfilled. I’m noticing the gains when I commit to myself.
That’s one of the things that makes us different at The Teaching Well—we’re not the woo-woo, feel-good wellness crew. We’re not into toxic positivity. We’re the whisper-in-your-ear, real talk folks. We’ll champion you, push you from behind—or drag you forward in loving ways, with your consent—toward the version of you that feels most liberated.
Maria Bryan:
Yeah.
Lindsey Fuller:
When we talk about building adult work cultures we don’t need to heal from—that’s not just our tagline. It’s about human-centered policies and practices. It’s about addressing and eradicating workplace abusers. And not every leader or boss is abusive—but I do think we’re over-characterizing folks that way sometimes. People are whole humans who make mistakes.
We want folks in leadership who actually care—people-first leaders.
We also want workplace wellbeing programs and benefits, and we make a distinction between those two. A lot of organizations have one or the other, but not both.
A program might be bringing in a masseuse once a year for 15-minute chair massages. A benefit is adequate paternity leave. Or being able to bring a care provider when you travel. Or getting a stipend for therapy. A benefit is something that’s structurally conducive to wellbeing.
Human-centered organizations invest in both.
Maria Bryan:
I love when you brought up self-care. Because self-care is so sexy and commercialized right now. I tell people—my self-care is sometimes eating a bucket of cookie dough and watching Netflix. It’s not centering me—it’s regulating me.
What I love about The Teaching Well is that you’re really pushing for systems—human-first systems. And you also practice evidence-based nervous system care and somatic embodiment. You model that.
Can you talk a little about that? I don’t want to reduce this to a “what to do when you’re burnt out” list, because your approach is holistic. But many—if not most—listeners are in a season of dysregulation. What are some of the things you're teaching and providing at The Teaching Well right now?
Lindsey Fuller:
Yeah, it’s a both/and.
For educators especially, self-care was weaponized during the pandemic. We shut down schools, and a week later were like, “Can you reinvent school? Teach online using technology you’ve never used? Create manipulatives and send packets to homes you can’t visit? Train families?”
And when teachers and principals started waving the flag—saying, “We’re not okay”—society gaslit us. “You’re working from home, why are you tired?”
They were in Zoom for eight hours a day trying to wrangle tiny humans who were also in fear and trauma. The self-care narrative shifted. It became toxic.
So we advocate for a concept called microdosing wellness—small, consistent efforts to release the pressure valve. To re-regulate your nervous system. Sometimes through self-regulation, sometimes through co-regulation, and sometimes by downregulating. These are all distinct processes we teach.
And it’s about shifting your mindset—from hoarding your wellbeing practices to spending them daily. As often as you need. As often as you can. As often as you want. It’s an abundance mindset. Five minutes of intentional practice can be high leverage.
We also work at the interpersonal and systemic level.
I’ve been deeply influenced by Shawn Ginwright’s work and his book The Four Pivots. One pivot is “problem to possibility.” So many social sector orgs are stuck in problem identification—we’re naming all the injustices (which is valid), but we’re not identifying the new, creative, paradigm-shifting solutions that allow us to manifest a different way of being.
And the piece that’s so often overlooked is interpersonal.
A lot of our workplace stress, dis-ease, and trauma comes from dysregulated people colliding into one another. Lord have mercy. It’s a lot of people problems. And I’m not saying people are the problem—but we have a lot of problems between people.
And the urgency of our work often means we don’t take the time to sit down and restore.
Maria Bryan:
We are all having a bad day. I tell people—everyone seems so mean right now. Emails in all caps. But then you hop on Zoom and they’re perfectly nice.
I’m like, I know what’s going on. It’s what you’re describing. People are deeply dysregulated. Emotionally depleted.
Lindsey Fuller:
Yes. Our wounds are communicating. I’m talking to your most wounded self. You’re hearing from mine. And then we’re shocked—and our feelings are hurt.
Maria Bryan:
Yes!
Lindsey Fuller:
And we’ve also hurt other people’s feelings. It’s a mess.
Maria Bryan:
Right. And this phenomenon—it’s not just in the nonprofit space, but that’s where I live. We’re so focused on our mission and those we serve, and we can be so nasty to each other.
And I don’t mean that judgmentally—I have a lot of empathy for it. But it’s something nonprofit leaders have to actively work on: helping staff recoup emotional energy so they can be kind. So they can slow down. So they can get off caps lock.
Lindsey Fuller:
Yes! That’s the headline. Get off caps lock.
And I’ll say—there’s a permission required. When we go into school staff meetings, professional development, or nonprofit team spaces, people gasp silently. They go to the bathroom to escape.
Just to acknowledge the duality that’s present.
You can be student-centered and also want your colleagues to be people you enjoy. You can be mission-driven and still want work to be joyful.
And that permission piece is real. People think they’ll lose their “badge” if they say, “Sometimes my students are a hot mess.” Or “Sometimes I’m so tired I can’t differentiate another lesson plan.”
But when you can grin in the lounge and cackle after a rough day—that’s part of how we cope through collective care.
So it's just really a trend I’m watching—people struggling to admit or accept or invite in this duality. But I’m out here saying: if I don’t like the team I’m on, that’s going to make coming to work suck way more than kids throwing chairs or needing more support than I can give.
There’s something there that we need to be exploring.
Maria Bryan:
Absolutely. And how strategic when we’re building teams—that we build them with people who vibe, who get along. I’ve been on teams like that and teams that were the opposite. And the ones where I really clicked with people? They’re still in my life.
Lindsey Fuller:
Exactly. It’s hugely personal work.
Maria Bryan:
Oh yeah.
Lindsey Fuller:
If it takes a village to raise a child, then my inner child for sure needs a stable village.
We’re all just a bunch of wounded kids in grown-up bodies. I’m like—what’s coming out of your Care Bear belly today? Is it joy? Irritability? Hatred? What’s the energy you’re radiating? Because that’s what you’re going to share with the people around you.
We do human-centered hiring intensives with organizations because we’ve realized folks are struggling to hire well. That’s a huge part of the retention and attrition issue.
One of the questions we ask every candidate is: “Sometimes at The Teaching Well, we’ve had to broker between individual boundaries and what’s good for the collective. What do you need coaching or support around when it comes to that dynamic?”
We’re very explicit. It’s not that self-care isn’t valued here—of course it is. It’s a necessity.
But when we have staff who leave at 3:00 every day and don’t take on deliverables, that contributes to the burnout of their colleagues.
There are racialized, gendered, class-based, and education-based identity markers that typically predict who takes on more and who takes on less.
So if we all take on enough, then all of us can go home by 4:15.
That’s the mindset shift that needs to happen around workplace wellbeing and sustainable caseloads.
Maria Bryan:
Mm. I love that nuance. Sometimes it feels like we’re so far away from that kind of communal work.
Lindsey Fuller:
But that’s the way forward.
Maria Bryan:
Yeah. That was actually my next question—what gives you hope right now when it comes to the future of education, of nonprofits, and of this broader movement to create cultures of care?
What excites you? What lights you up? What do you see ahead?
Lindsey Fuller:
Kids. Young ones. They’re just naturally gifted at freedom dreaming.
These newer generations we’re watching? They have this no-nonsense, unapologetic empathy and advocacy for being human differently. That’s potent to me. They’re just not here for oppression—they’re opting out. And I’m like, “Okay. Something powerful is coming.”
I also see my colleagues and clients doing the work. I wake up loving what I do. We’re seeing real impact as we reduce stigma, wrap around people, and heal out loud—ourselves included.
The fusion of those things? That gives me hope.
The next generation is embracing social-emotional learning, mental health, and collective liberation. I’m clear that we’re going to be free with them at the helm—so long as we steward the planet and resources so they can step into leadership.
But things will be different. It’s coming.
I just want to be a good living ancestor—make sure my contributions are laying the foundation for them to take over.
And I’ll gladly follow. I’m kind of done following boomers. Sorry! I’m complete with that. The death grip on politics—friends, enjoy retirement! We’ll give you your flowers.
I’m ready for young people to lead. That’s giving me a lot of critical hope right now.
They’re anti-war. Anti-burnout. Anti-exploitation. Anti-racism.
Young people are telling us clearly: we can do this differently.
They’re seeing the world in such a beautiful, connective, human-centered way.
We just have to get out of the way.
Maria Bryan:
I’m so here for that.
Lindsey, thank you so much. How can listeners connect with you and learn more about The Teaching Well?
Lindsey Fuller:
Visit us at theteachingwell.org. We also have a podcast, Gather at the Well, where I run my mouth—available on Apple and Spotify.
We’re always looking for folks to join the movement, sponsor the podcast, or replenish the well—like every nonprofit.
And if you want to connect personally, hit me up on LinkedIn. I like to muse, I like to connect, and ultimately, I like to get into good trouble.